I posted the following to techwr-l as a response to a thread there but wanted to bring it up here as well. As you may (or may not) know the STC has a new and improved salary report offering. Third party data is now being used in addition to (I believe) the salary survey and there are now two reports.. a "lite" free version and a complete paid-for version. I'd missed the announcements of this change that were written in Intercom over the past few months (must have read right over them) but I do have questions.--Someone wrote:> Good idea in and of itself -- after speaking with a number of HR folks> and hiring managers. I found that few (who are not Tech Comm pros> themselves) knew of the STC and all felt they had access the what they> considered reliable salary data through other means (Radford et al).> The Society's Survey may be very useful as an industry specific digest> of information but the potential for STC data to move company pay> grades one way or the other is in my opinion and experience small. I replied:This is precisely why I was surprised that we now have a paid-forsalary database model above and beyond the free offering. Given thatthe STC is not a known credible source for technicalcommunication-related salary information. I would think that even thatpaid-for offering is still just a "nice to have" and not anything thatcarries any significant weight with HR and other hiring organizationsand personnel. What is the STC doing to correct this perception or will theperception remain and the STC position the new paid-for model as anice-to-have offering that provides more inconclusive informationabout techcomm salaries than the free inconclusive offering?--I know that none of my employers ever considered the STC salary reports to be a credible source of salary information. I'd really like to know what steps the STC is taking to correct this or if they aren't how the paid-for model is justifiable for information that carries no benefit. We have to pay for salary reports now in addition to the $175 membership fee?Guys when I've gone for a job and asked about salary. I've had this information in mind. Recently an prospective employer lowballed me and didn't care when I pounted out they were at 75% of the average for their geographic area (don't know who they hired but I do know why they lost the writer they had...). Employers just don't act on this salary data even with the right candidate in front of them. This salary data is just nice to have. So we have to pay for salary reports now in addition to the $175 membership fee? Wow. The gall. I dunno. With fees going up shouldn't we get the "robust offering" gratis? Expand what we get for our money? What else could it possibly add that's worth paying for. And yes. I don't see that the STC has any credibility in this area nor the weight to influence employers.... It's interesting information to know what your peers make but nothing more than that. So what's the real return for me paying for that salary information?Cheers,Sean Well in part the new survey includes a "few" more respondents than the STC's survey the new salary survey reports significantly lower salaries than the previous survey and the new salary survey relies on an antiquated probably pre-90s definition of what a technical communicator is. And yeah sounds like we're successfully asking each other the same question over and over. This conversation would appear funny if held in person.. perhaps somebody has an answer?Cheers,Sean I just got an advertisement for a $99 webinar about using the new salary database and it includes the database. I assume $99 is the cost of the data for members. Below is the text from the announcement. I still want to know What makes this any different from the old salary info if they both carry the same weight (zero) with HR organizations and hiring folks. Live Web Seminar for Technical WritersWhen: Wednesday. December 5. 2007Time: 1:00 — 2:00 PM (EST)Want to know if you are being compensated enough,or how your salary compares to other industries?STC has created the Salary Database using the U. S. Bureau ofLabor Statistics to develop a document for technical writers to use as abenchmark in their industries and regions. REGISTRATION NOW OPEN!Participants in this 60-minute Live Web Seminar will learn how to use the Salary Database as benchmarks for technical writers in their industries and regions. Through actual scenarios provided by STC members. Rick O’Sullivan will walk participants through the different ways the data can be used to assist in job searches create budget projections for technical communication managers evaluate the competitiveness of different regions for facility location and provide estimates for technical consulting for different regional and industry clients. PRICING:STC Member Participant - $99price includes PDF version of thefull Salary DatabaseSTC Nonmember Participant - $149price includes PDF version of thefull Salary DatabaseREGISTER NOW!Once registered you will receive a confirmation e-mail with a toll-free telephone number and instructions on how to access the audio portion of the seminar. The Web link will also be e-mailed to each participant to access the visual presentation. The PDF of the Salary Database will be e-mailed in a separate e-mail to allow you to review and become familiar with the data to fully benefit from Rick O’Sullivan’s lecture. What is a Live Web Seminar?A Live Web Seminar is a live and interactive 60-minute Web-based seminar. Live Web Seminars allow you to participate by listening to the presenter viewing the presentation online and submitting questions through a chat screen. All that is required is a telephone line to be able to access the audio portion of the presentation and a computer (with separate Internet connection) to access the visual presentation. Richard O’Sullivan is an economist with 30 years’ experience in public policy and industry economics. By starting his career as an economic statistician for the U. S. Bureau of the Census. O’Sullivan gained an intimate understanding of the creation development use and abuse of economic statistics that has long served him and his clients. Over the years Rick has developed statistical programs for several industry associations and professional societies. Very timely indeed. I saw it there too. Funny how a non-STC member sent that to a STC member. I thought it was appropriate. Forgive me for not citing it. I agree with you and Sean on your thoughts. If the free version of the salary survey mirrors this how does it provide a benefit to our membership other than the STC header on it. And how does the cost of the purchased information trump the free version? I guess those that purchase it can give us their feedback. I also believe we should have a choice in whether we want to purchase the survey or not after we see a demo of the database. Put the decision in our hands to spend our money on it after we have seen it in action and we can justify its cost out of our pockets. After all it is nice to test drive a car before we buy it. Henry My guess is that the paid-for version is a very robust mechanism for digging into and interpreting the data. My main question is now that we have this is there a plan to change the disposition of hiring authorities and HR departments toward the STC-provided numbers. We've heard from one manager on techwr-l saying they use the STC survey to correct the (low) offers their company extends toward candidates in Silicon Valley which is good. My own experience however has been that HR and hiring authorities pay no mind to the STC-provided numbers. This is my experience over 12 years at 5 companies in the northeast US. I would like some clarity in the communications we get from the STC. For example member of what?STC Member Participant versus STC Nonmember Participant. Does this mean that if you are in the STC and a member of some SIG or other special group you get a reduced rate over those who are STC members but who are not members of that same special group?I guess I'm fuzzy on what an "STC Nonmember is." It could be any living thing that is not a member of the STC. I guess but then why call them an "STC" nonmember? Do we charge a fee for "STC Nonmember" status?What I'm getting at may seem like small stuff but I think it's an example of a larger issue within the STC: In addition to featuring correct use of grammar technical (and business) communication should be clear concise complete accurate and ethical. In this case what "STC Nonmember" is unclear just as "PDF of a database" is unclear just as "what exactly are we getting and why isn't it included in our regular fees" is unclear. Food for thought. Sean The tone of a recent communication from STC is condescending and the underlying implications are insulting.>For 2007 rather than conduct its own survey. STC will use the U. S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) Occupational Employment Survey (OES). I preferred to hear from my peers not the government.>This survey provides greater coverage-it samples 1.25 million business establishments-and is more credible because the data are reported by employers rather than employees. (HR departments distrust employee-reported salary data as respondents have been known to inflate numbers in hopes of boosting raises.) What an insult! I doubt that many are inflating their salary. The implication here is that STC members those of us not in leadership roles cannot be trusted to give credible reports when asked.>As HR departments usually file the OES questionnaire to BLS they are familiar with the data and are more likely to use the OES than what they perceive as self-serving association surveys. Self-serving is pejorative here but I preferred to be served by my association and not a government agency. Speaking of serving. STC as body is asking for more money and delivering less. How does that translate into service? It was a typo. The STC shows that it should have read "STC Member" and "Nonmember" meaning that STC members pay $99 and non-members pay $149. I spent more hours than I care to remember locating extracting and formatting BLS data to add to our software products in a previous job. I appreciate that some people may like the convenience of having all the information in one place but I can't personally imagine paying for the privilege of looking at data that I can easily find for free. > (HR departments distrust employee-reported salary data as respondents have been known to inflate numbers in hopes of boosting raises.) What an insult! I doubt that many are inflating their salary. The implication here is that STC members those of us not in leadership roles cannot be trusted to give credible reports when asked. Sorry Karen but we disagree here. From my experience this is 100% fact. The statement from the STC is not that members can't be trusted. The statement is that HR and other hiring entities have not considered the former survey results as valid data points because a) it's a small sampling of the laborers at large and b) it's based on data collected from laborers and not from their employers or filings. This is precisely why I've asked (many many times now) what the STC is doing to correct this perception among hiring parties. Without this change the new salary DB paid for or not is no more valuable than the old survey results. A big attraction for non-members to join the STC is this survey. I know it was a draw for me. I hope we advertise member benefits include a watered-down survey for free and another $100 for the full version cause I don't see justification of the "M" in the Salary Survey menu option as it is not truly members only anymore. I will say this. I chirped in on the LW SIG mailing list late in a discussion thread on this same topic. I said "Someone who makes it a platform to remedy the issues posted in this thread and in the Forum get my vote for election" and I stand by my word; I have no connection to the timing of the email distribution of 2008 candidates although I hoe some are reading and listening to our concerns. Henry Yes. The first step is to stop publishing survey results that are statistically invalid. We had an expert review our old salary survey (both methodology and results) and discovered that the data were not statistically valid. First our sample size was not large enough to provide meaningful data about the profession. (In 2005 we had only 2,300 respondents to the survey.) Second certain areas of the country were over-represented in the responses. In our old survey technical writer/editors in California accounted for 25% of our respondents!Knowing the old survey was not statistically valid we had the option of doing a more elaborate (and thus more expensive) survey ourselves or hire someone (more money) to do a survey for us. We would have had to pass the cost of this onto our members. Meanwhile the U. S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) has published salary data specific to technical writers that is drawn from 1.25 million businesses in all 50 states plus the District of Columbia and Puerto Rico. We don't have anywhere near the amount of money it would take to conduct a survey on that scale. So the choice was to throw money at a survey that we know to be invalid or help technical writers to use the existing data to their best advantage. The BLS Web site requires a lot of scrolling hunting and clicking to get the data for technical writers. To save members that effort we've created what we're calling the Summary Edition of the Salary Database. It's free to STC members and the introduction explains a lot of the terms and conventions used by the BLS. The tables in the Summary Edition provide a nice overview of the data without all the scrolling hunting and clicking of the BLS site. Personally after spending time with the Summary Edition. I was a lot better prepared to go to the BLS site and make sense of what I was seeing. The $99 fee is for a live Web seminar called "Upgrade Your Career Using STC's Salary Database." It's for those who feel they need help interpreting the data and want ideas for using the data to their best advantage. It comes with a PDF of the full data--again greater convenience for those that want it. But if you don't need it you don't have to pay for it. You have at this moment access via the BLS site to data that is far superior to the old salary survey. When the Summary Edition is released you'll have an easy-to-access overview of the data and an explanation of the terms used by BLS. Those who choose can take part in the seminar if they need help with the data or want ideas for using it. The reason we're charging money for the seminar is so that we don't have to push the cost of it onto members who don't need it. I appreciated that a lot of members liked our old salary survey. Back in the day I wrote copy for the old survey and I was proud of the product. But it wasn't statistically valid. Publishing something that is not professional quality made STC less professional. If we want hiring authorities and HR departments to respect what we publish we need to make sure what we publish is professional quality. Maurice MartinDirector of Communication and Marketing I guess that's smart. But let's be clear: the old survey was obviously soft. It was what it was and did what it did. It got me a raise last July simply because it gave my VP a little something to help make the retention case. Had our CEO pointed out how soft the data were my boss wouldn't have argued. That didn't happen. I'm thinking about 80/20 here. If my case is typical the old survey was adequate for my purposes Dr. Pareto smiles. This may not be adequate if the goal is broad STC credibility but 80/20 figures here again: how important is abstract Society credibility vs direct member benefit? To me. 20% is the upper limit of how much energy STC should devote to the institution The $99 fee is for a live Web seminar called "Upgrade Your Career Using STC's Salary Database." It's for those who feel they need help interpreting the data and want ideas for using the data to their best advantage. It comes with a PDF of the full data--again greater convenience for those that want it. But if you don't need it you don't have to pay for it. to say that I've already paid for the magical PDF but doubt the argument would get far. The BLS data and service are pretty simple to use. I have to assume that STC's analysis and for-fee product includes some thinking about which data should be selected and maybe filter some stuff out of the obvious datasets. I may not have a claim to the PDF but I do have one to the underlying thinking. I mean how can that be a secret?So after the webinar the members will need a full report of the brainwork invested so we can perform our own analysis and decide its worth. If need be one of us could pony-up US$99 and share the report. Race ahead with me. Would the Society assert a copyright against the report? Would members be enjoined from sharing Society product with other members? If yes see the problem and absurdity?LQ Maurice wrote:"First our sample size was not large enough to provide meaningful data about the profession. (In 2005 we had only 2,300 respondents to the survey.)"I find it interesting that the STC survey with 2,300 respondents isn't statistically valid yet voter surveys of ~500 respondents are. Of course. I'll admit that I've never taken a statistics course but if we round the numbers up a little bit for simplicity of calculation 2,500 respondents out of a membership of 15,000 is almost 17% of our membership. Of course it's a much smaller percentage of the global population of technical writers but it would seem that it would serve the membership of STC to report salaries of enrolled members who are theoretically (assuming of course that the organization is positioning itself to be so) the cream of the crop. BTW. I didn't see the mechanism for embedding quoted material in my Firefox browser with the NoScripts extension. Yes. The first step is to stop publishing survey results that are statistically invalid. We had an expert review our old salary survey (both methodology and results) and discovered that the data were not statistically valid. First our sample size was not large enough to provide meaningful data about the profession. (In 2005 we had only 2,300 respondents to the survey.) Second certain areas of the country were over-represented in the responses. In our old survey technical writer/editors in California accounted for 25% of our respondents!Knowing the old survey was not statistically valid we had the option of doing a more elaborate (and thus more expensive) survey ourselves or hire someone (more money) to do a survey for us. We would have had to pass the cost of this onto our members. Meanwhile the U. S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) has published salary data specific to technical writers that is drawn from 1.25 million businesses in all 50 states plus the District of Columbia and Puerto Rico. We don't have anywhere near the amount of money it would take to conduct a survey on that scale. So the choice was to throw money at a survey that we know to be invalid or help technical writers to use the existing data to their best advantage. The BLS Web site requires a lot of scrolling hunting and clicking to get the data for technical writers. To save members that effort we've created what we're calling the Summary Edition of the Salary Database. It's free to STC members and the introduction explains a lot of the terms and conventions used by the BLS. The tables in the Summary Edition provide a nice overview of the data without all the scrolling hunting and clicking of the BLS site. Personally after spending time with the Summary Edition. I was a lot better prepared to go to the BLS site and make sense of what I was seeing. The $99 fee is for a live Web seminar called "Upgrade Your Career Using STC's Salary Database." It's for those who feel they need help interpreting the data and want ideas for using the data to their best advantage. It comes with a PDF of the full data--again greater convenience for those that want it. But if you don't need it you don't have to pay for it. So the new DB and Summary Edition are now available? I only see 2005 and prior on the web site at this time. Or will it be available before this seminar? I personally find it difficult to assess my need without seeing the new offering to know what I need. Or to put it another way. $99 is a lot to pay to see if this new salary resource is even worth my money. Not knowing exactly what it is not even having the free version in hand. I can't justify the cost to learn about it. You have at this moment access via the BLS site to data that is far superior to the old salary survey. When the Summary Edition is released you'll have an easy-to-access overview of the data and an explanation of the terms used by BLS. Those who choose can take part in the seminar if they need help with the data or want ideas for using it. The reason we're charging money for the seminar is so that we don't have to push the cost of it onto members who don't need it. I appreciated that a lot of members liked our old salary survey. Back in the day I wrote copy for the old survey and I was proud of the product. But it wasn't statistically valid. Publishing something that is not professional quality made STC less professional. If we want hiring authorities and HR departments to respect what we publish we need to make sure what we publish is professional quality. Are you familiar with the Underpants Gnomes? They had a similar strategy.1. Collect underpants.2. ?3. Profit. What's the plan? Where's the detailed info? I know there were two flowery articles in Intercom about the change but come on. I'm not paying $99 outside the tent just to get a peek at what's inside. For all I know it's just a bearded lady. Please publish detailed info about the offering on the web site. Please post a link to it here and send e-mail to the membership with the link explaining what it is. Also do the same with the plan on how this is going to be marketed to corporations. Also include information on how the STC will grow the offering to include other countries (I heard some Canadians making noise on a listserv earlier this week) since we are a global organization. Paying good money to see IF a new offering is worth my money is ludicrous. I won't do it. Show me the value first and the plan to create value around the offering (that is the plan for adoption among corporations). Most of the things NoScript breaks for me are things I'm not overly concerned with anyway. The important thing to me is that NoScript in conjunction with Firefox allows me to be reasonably secure whilst browsing the web using Windows. When I visit a site that I'm reasonably certain is reputable. I allow the site server to execute scripts but not the dozen or so other servers that are involved in the dynamic display of advertising or the collection of usage data. I will admit to being highly security-conscious but I've been malware free in a Windows environment for several years now. While I appreciate the thoughtful concern of 'nix evangelists. I really don't feel I need a different operating environment to maintain my computing security. Mike

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Oy this challenge gives me such a headache. Because I really don’t have a good answer for it. The only thing I’ve got for you is something you might already experience about– The (where I am a perpetually-suspended-for-lack-of-attendance member) and it does so for non-members as come up. Which is so great! Be sure to check that link for the recycling schedule–you’ll see the collection containers outside the Coop on those days only. The only thing is just be sure to combine a trip there with other nearby errands–don’t say take a car trip expressly for that intend because then you’re probably creating more pollution than your recycling is preventing. Not a problem for you on your bike but still you experience it needed mentioning. I’ve been considering making my own soy yogurt at home so that I can avoid generating more plastic expend with NYC-non-recyclable yogurt containers. The thing is for soy yogurt you need to go away with soy milk–which usually comes in asceptic containers (Tetrapaks) which are. The next logical go is to go away from scratch with dried soybeans from which to make homemade soymilk and then alter soy yogurt from that and convert the soybean dregs. This is a more closed-loop process but quite honestly it’s one step too many for me. My next consideration is to change by reversal approve to dairy yogurt and acquire in returnable furnish jars at the with which to alter yogurt from. This would avoid waste from disposable milk cartons and yogurt cartons and since I ride go or take the subway no energy (except my own) is expended to return the glass milk jars. But then there are to believe… It’s a little bit strange–while I comfort eat cheese and products made with dairy why do I conclude so do by in eating milk-based yogurt? And forget about drinking an actual glass of draw. But back to your question of recycling… What do ya’ll do with the plastics you can’t recycle? And how do you cut drink on the amount of non-recyclable plastics you consume? I had NO IDEA about the problem with Tetra Paks. I thought we were doing something good by using a recyclable-packaged product that didn’t need to be constantly refrigerated thereby using fewer energy resources. Depressing. I am slightly cheered by the news about the PS Coop taking other plastics–I’d considerered saving them up and taking them to my mother’s (hundreds of miles away) the next time I go–so thanks for spreading that news. I hated throwing them away. Now I can just drop them off the next measure I go visit friends in PS. Something else to think about — my sister has whole file of indignant correspondence with Stonyfield Farms about the fact that their yogurt is packaged in #5 plastic tubs. She loves their yogurt (and so does her son) but has decided to alter all of her own yogurt change surface though she doesn’t desire it as much until she can get yogurt in recyclable containers. So I think it’s a two-pronged approach — communicating your desires to the affiliate over and over and making do with alternatives that aren’t quite as satisfactory. (My sister finally did get a response from Stonyfield which was basically. “Our yogurt containers are 100% recyclable in areas that accept #5 plastics for recycling.” To which my sister responded. “Yes but since most places don’t accept #5 plastic that’s desire saying your containers are fully compostable in worm bins that use special magic plastic-eating worms!”) Hi! This is my first time commenting here. I love this site and undergo gotten some great tips from it. I found the cerebrate on Linda Perman’s site. I’m surprised by Stonyfield’s response. They have a ‘act approve’ program where you mail your empty yogurt containers approve to them for recycling. That’s what I do (I love their vanilla and lemon yogurt and eat a LOT of it). I don’t remember the complete address (it’s at domiciliate) but it’s Stonyfield do work act Back schedule. Londonderry. NH. I was surprised by stonyfield’s response too because I experience they’re partnered with recycline to create toothbrushes/etc. thanks for the info about the take back schedule! when I looked up the cerebrate above I got the address: A Note About Stonyfield do work’s Recycling Program:With polypropylene #5 plastic packaging we use significantly less plastic than we would if our cups were HDPE #2 plastic. Some communities however don’t recycle #5 containers. If you are out of ways to reuse your Stonyfield Farm yogurt cups and if #5 plastic recycling isn’t available in your area you can displace your CLEAN Stonyfield Farm cups to us and we’ll be sure they’ll get recycled. displace them to: Stonyfield Farm. 10 Burton control. Londonderry. NH 03053 I was thinking of joining the Park Slope Co-op after my CSA toughen ends. It’s about 30 min on the ride from the Manhattan side of the bring and if I do hours and shopping on the same day it’s not bad. Also if I plan enough stuff in that area. I can control there since I usually drive to the natural food stores on Staten Island which can be reached by bus or a hillly 30 min ride go. I wonder how many crafts can go from soyogurt (and. I guess dairy yogurt) containers? You may use <a href="" call=""> <abbr call=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote have in mind=""> <code> <em> <i> <touch> <strong> in your comment.

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